satwaves_header_main
It is currently Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:34 am

Click To Launch

sirius_smallxm_small





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ] 

Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

 Name one company Brandon 
Author Message
$atwaves $upporter
$atwaves $upporter
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 1343
Location: northridge CALIF
Post #1 Re: Name one company Brandon


MUSCLE13 wrote:
I would like to see one person here (Brandon or anybody else) name one electronic media company that hasn't been valued on EBITDA by the street in the last 2 decades. From Sat TV to cable networks, to cable system operators, to TV companies, to radio companies - from Large to small. They are all valued on EBITDA by Wall Street.

For people here not to know this and keep preaching earnings instead of cash flow says one thing to me. Nobody here has followed any media companies in the last 20-25 years.

_________________
When you feel like giving up, remember why you held on for so long in the first place


Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:40 am
Profile
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #2 Re: Name one company Brandon
Is It Time to Get Rid of EBITDA?

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/arti ... icleid=661

After facing a daily barrage of news stories about alleged abuse by corporations, officers, and the accountants who are supposed to certify the validity of their statements, a weary public could be forgiven for wondering if the well of accounting and financial controversies has finally run dry.

According to Wharton faculty and other experts, not yet. The latest target, however, may not be a company or even an individual. Instead it is a concept, EBITDA, that may have been indirectly responsible for at least some of the corporate carcasses now littering the landscape.

EBITDA, or Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization, has been used by analysts and investors as a tool to measure the fiscal health of the many high tech, media and other asset-heavy firms that do not generate earnings, but instead incur plenty of depreciation, amortization, and other charges.

In the 1980s through the 1990s, many analysts and others believed that peeling away these expenses, which generally were not directly incurred in operations, would enable them to more accurately analyze and compare the  core operations of companies. In fact, many treated EBITDA as a modified  cash flow statement, sometimes mistakenly referring to it as  free cash flow.

It should be noted, though, that while a cash flow statement reconciles a company s net income or loss for a period to the company s cash position as of the end of that period, EBITDA does not. EBITDA is also different from a  free cash flow statement, which is basically EBITDA reduced by capital expenditures (purchases of generally long-lived assets like machinery, equipment or other items that show up on the balance sheet instead of the income statement). And of course, because EBITDA excludes so many expenses, it does not measure net income. In light of this, some people have questioned its usefulness.

John Percival, an adjunct finance professor at Wharton, is one who never quite accepted EBITDA as a valid tool.  In some of my classes, I call it EBIT Duh, he says.  It is the lazy analyst s cash flow and it is dangerous.

Other accountants are also raising issues about EBITDA. Ben Neuhausen, the national director of accounting at BDO Seidman, notes that  EBITDA continues to be valuable. But it needs to be used with care. As a measure of performance it is not a substitute for net income. Just as EBITDA ignores cash outlays for capital expenditures that can be significant, it also ignores interest and other specified expenses that can account for a large part of a company s cash outflow.

EBITDA, Percival says, was originally used to assess the ability of a company to service its debt in the short run, about a year or two. Comparing EBITDA to interest expense would theoretically give a user an idea about whether there was sufficient operating income to meet interest payments. But because it ignored many sources of cash outflow (such as capital expenditures), a company could turn in stellar EBITDA, yet not have enough cash on hand to fund its interest and other payments. The problem was actually exacerbated in the 1980s when leveraged buyouts (LBOs), which typically incurred high levels of debt, began to sweep across the nation.

 In the 1980 s people started to use EBITDA to find good candidates for LBOs, (EBITDA was thought to be a good indicator of a company s ability to meet debt payments), says Percival.  They would project growing EBITDA in the future and say that the company could handle much more debt. Using an EBITDA-based analysis, says Percival, LBOs would then put  huge amounts of debt in companies and then later find that there was not sufficient cash to service the debt.

But he notes that EBITDA makes some shaky assumptions, such as a presumption that all revenues are collected. It is  ludicrous, he adds, to use EBITDA to value companies. The problem, according to Percival, is that company value is really an equity concept,  and equity value comes from future free cash flow. Because it doesn t consider capital-intensive and other cash expenditures,  EBITDA is a poor approximation to free cash flow Overall, except for very specific, limited applications, EBITDA is a dangerous number.

That was clearly demonstrated in the case of WorldCom, which saw its stock go into a free-fall and was recently delisted after the company reported that it had inflated its EBITDA by $3.8 billion over a five-quarter period by simply, and improperly, classifying routine operating costs as long-term capital costs.

Operating costs and other expenses should generally be immediately recognized in the period incurred unlike expenditures that can legitimately be capitalized as assets and depreciated over their useful life. By misrepresenting these expenses, WorldCom artificially inflated its net income and, therefore, its EBITDA.

If the company believed there was justification for treating these expenses as capital expenditures, that rationalization should have been disclosed through financial statement footnotes or other appropriate means.

Former WorldCom CFO Scott Sullivan recently pled not guilty to charges of securities fraud. A recent tally of the company s accounting errors (including revenue misstatement and the improper deconsolidation of an unprofitable subsidiary) now stands at an estimated $10 billion, according to CFO.com.

Percival s skeptical view of EBITDA is today echoed, in varying degrees, by a wide range of professionals on Wall Street and beyond. One critic is Jordan Rohan, a principal at SoundView Technology Group, who covers media and entertainment, cable, and online media sectors.  While EBITDA used to be a key valuation method of media, it is being displaced by one that incorporates price-to-earnings and price-to-sales multiples, EBITDA and cash flow analysis, he says.

Earlier this year, for example, after he recalculated the companies earnings projections under GAAP instead of EBITDA, Rohan reduced his price target on four media stocks: Clear Channel Communications; AOL Time Warner, Inc. (which is now under investigation by the SEC for allegedly inappropriately recognizing income from transactions involving its AOL unit and third parties); Walt Disney Co., and Viacom, Inc. He cautions, though, that such projections  are constantly in motion.

Caveats about EBITDA are even being issued from accounting s standard setters, although the warnings stop short of a disavowal. For example, in an August 2001 project proposal titled  Reporting Information About The Financial Performance Of Business Enterprises, the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) noted its concern that while many companies increasingly focus on alternative measures of performance, including EBITDA,  ...the current use of alternative and inconsistent measures is often confusing and sometimes misleading. That project, now called  Financial Performance Reporting by Business Enterprises is currently in process.

Like Percival, Neuhausen says EBITDA s original attraction may be traced to the high volume of LBOs of the 1980s. The structure of those LBOs meant that most were accounted for under the Purchase method of accounting (as opposed to the Pooling-of-Interest method, which was later effectively eliminated by FASB). Under the purchase method, assets acquired in a business combination are generally recorded by the acquirer at its fair market value, which may be significantly higher than book value.

 Because purchase accounting resulted in a step-up of asset values, it also triggered higher depreciation expense, explains Neuhausen.  EBITDA was viewed as a way to compare a company s performance before and after an LBO; and was also seen as a way to compare LBO companies with non-leveraged ones. But expenses associated with debt service are real costs and cannot be ignored. EBITDA may be useful in a limited context if it s utilized in concert with other measures.

EBITDA does have its defenders, however. Accounting professor Cathy Schrand points out that EBITDA provides a measure of the performance of a company, regardless of how it was financed. She agrees that EBITDA ignores such financing costs as interest, but counters that other metrics, like net income, do not consider other issues, such as the cost of dividends that may be incurred when stock is issued.

 There are also intangible costs related to the issuance of stock, such as the dilution of shareholders ownership interest, she says.  EBITDA or other measures may be appropriate, depending on what is being examined. For example, interest is a cost of funding, and reflects one choice of financing. So if the overall performance of a company, including its choices about financing, is being studied, then a measurement that considers earnings after interest might be appropriate.


Financial analytical tools are constantly being developed and refined. But just as physicists and other scientists are still searching for a Unified Theory to explain all the basic forces of physics, financial and accounting professionals have yet to discover a unified theory to analyze a company s performance. And as the recent experiences with EBITDA demonstrate, until such a unified theory is developed, it can be dangerous to place too much reliance on any single analytical tool.

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:50 am
Profile YIM WWW
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #3 Re: Name one company Brandon
http://www.ipabusinesstodaymagazine.com ... EBITDA.asp

EBIT-‘DUH’

by Erin Hollis
In a March 2003 Forbes magazine article, Warren Buffet is quoted as saying, "References to EBITDA make us shudder. Too many investors are focusing on earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. That makes sense...only if you think capital expenditures are funded by the tooth fairy."

EBITDA is not the "be-all and end-all" it’s purported to be. In fact, when applied as a single measure of financial performance or value, EBITDA has many inadequacies. Naive and uninformed individuals indiscriminately use EBITDA for whatever purpose they desire, and worse yet, they use deceptive accounting techniques to create mathematical monstrosities as a substitute for sound financial analysis. These individuals do not understand EBITDA’s two basic deficiencies: 1) EBITDA does not equal cash flow; and 2) EBITDA is not a standalone multiple of valuation analysis.
What is EBITDA?

EBITDA is an accounting metric that is literally translated as Earnings Before Interest Taxes Depreciation and Amortization, and is calculated commonly as either Net EBITDA or Operating EBITDA.

Net EBITDA = Net Income + Taxes + Interest Expense + Depreciation/Amortization Expense.

Operating EBITDA = Net Operating Profit + Depreciation/Expense {extraordinary items, interest income, gains and/or losses and non-operating income and/or expenses may (or may not) be ignored}.

Unfortunately, EBITDA is not a measure of financial performance calculated in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) and therefore, there is no general consensus as to its official calculation. As mentioned, the computation of earnings is discretionary as it may or may not include non-cash expenses and non-cash revenues. To further complicate matters, differences in accounting methods and a company’s accounting policies also make a consistent application of EBITDA among all companies, all industries, all reporting periods and all circumstances nearly impossible.

EBITDA’s fame emerged during the 1980s and 1990s, when it was used to evaluate the cash flow of companies in a low-credit or near-bankruptcy position. Also, during the 1980s it was a tool LBO (leveraged buy out) sponsors and lenders utilized to measure a company’s ability to service debt. The theory was simple: if both capital expenditures and repayment of principal can be delayed, and if working capital is not needed for expansion, then the entire EBITDA amount can be given to lenders to pay interest.

Sponsors compiled aggressive financial projections based on this theory. Postponing unimportant expenditures was expected for financially distressed companies; however, to add depreciation expense to earnings to service interest payments is only rational for short periods of time. Eventually, repairs on equipment must be made and new purchases must replace obsolete equipment. Further, for growing companies, the amount of annual capital expenditure is likely to exceed depreciation expense as the capacity must grow to meet demand.

The frenzy of the media acquisition bender was fueled by creative EBITDA calculations beginning in the early 1990s by big name players such as Time, Inc., Warner Communications, Viamcom and CBS. Following soon after were the WorldCom and Enron accounting scandals in 2001 and 2002. The sequence of these and other similar events began to shake investors from the EBITDA trance. Not so intently were they listening to Wall Street analysts and corporate managers who continued to speak of allegedly healthy companies with sexy EBITDA margins and therefore ample cash to service debt obligations. Investors came to see the reality: EBITDA is not a valid indication of the investment’s cash flow, cash position or value. The EBITDA calculations resembled something more along the lines of “Frankenstein math” than thoughtful analysis, and put several large investing companies that ignored the warning signs into serious financial trouble.

The Kroger Co., a well-known retail grocery chain, is also guilty of creative EBITDA calculations—this time to award annual bonuses for the chief executive and other top officers. A March 2002 article published in the Wall Street Journal Europe reports that for many boards of directors like Kroger’s, EBITDA increasingly is becoming a factor in compensation decisions even though the metric has no particular meaning. In other words, "EBITDA means what a company wants it to mean," and in Kroger’s case, shareholders get shortchanged because although EBITDA is almost always a positive number, simultaneously earnings per share can be negative.
1) EBITDA does not equal cash flow.

As if distorting EBITDA with creative accounting to make a company appear more profitable than what it really is isn’t bad enough, there are those who try to substitute this inept calculation for cash flow. Cash flow calculations consider working capital requirements for growth, income taxes and the purchase and funding of new equipment. EBITDA clearly omits these fundamental factors and misrepresents a company’s financial reality.

Moody’s Investors Service published a special comment report in June of 2000 on the "Ten Critical Failings of EBITDA as the Principal Determinant of Cash Flow." In brief, this frequently quoted and wellrespected report points out:

* EBITDA ignores changes in working capital and during periods of working capital growth needs.
* EBITDA distorts a company’s liquidity.
* EBITDA does not consider reinvestment of machinery and equipment, especially those companies with short-lived assets.
* EBITDA says nothing about the quality of a company’s earnings.
* EBITDA is an inadequate standalone measure as an acquisition multiple.
* EBITDA ignores distinctions in the quality of cash flow resulting from differing accounting policies.
* EBITDA ignores differences between U.S. GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) and foreign (non-U.S.) GAAP.
* EBITDA offers limited protection when used in certain loan covenants.
* EBITDA does not resemble reality.
* EBITDA ignores unique industry attributes.

This last point is especially troublesome for those companies in industries that require frequent upgrading or replacement of equipment. EBITDA is not a substitute cash flow calculation for companies with expensive, short-lived assets (five years or less) that need continual replacement or have intense working capital requirements. In general, EBITDA falls short of considering the specific financial and operational attributes of industries, such as manufacturing, rental equipment services, trucking and transportation, and construction.

Manufacturers must replace and/or repair equipment frequently and therefore EBITDA is not an appropriate measure of cash flow for these companies. A thorough analysis of a manufacturing company will always consider the age and condition of the equipment. Maintaining state-of-the-art CNC and computerized equipment keeps these companies competitive. New equipment purchases dictate heavy depreciation expense; these purchases are likely financed, as well. Manufacturers also have steep working capital requirements to fund current and future contracts. A typical manufacturing company can have a healthy EBITDA of 10 to 25% of sales. However, depreciation and interest expenses may greatly depress pre-tax income.

The American Rental Association divides equipment into three broad categories: 1) construction and industrial equipment; 2) general tools, including do-it-yourself equipment; and 3) party and event equipment. Rental equipment companies can be very lucrative, with EBITDA’s of 20 to 25% of sales. However, the demands of replenishing the fleet can be very capital intensive and a substantial portion of earnings must be reinvested. Additionally, these purchases tend to be financed, and therefore, EBITDA is not representative of cash flow as it does not take into consideration the depreciation expense and interest payments required to keep rental equipment "attractive" and current. Rental service companies can temporarily delay reinvesting depreciation if the equipment is fairly new. Nevertheless, this cannot last for any lengthy period of time. If the rental services company engages in used equipment sales, then EBITDA can be affected by the volume and timing of those sales as well.

Trucks, tractors and trailers are all short-lived assets, meaning the equipment is depreciated over five years or less. Therefore, for many small to medium-size trucking and transportation companies, depreciation expense can quickly deplete profitability and make for very "skinny" pre-tax earnings. Further, the rolling stock is typically financed over the depreciable period. Taking into consideration the sizeable depreciation and interest expenses a trucking and transportation company will have on annual basis, EBITDA is not a realistic substitute for cash flow. Maintaining the transportation fleet is imperative for transportation companies, not only to be competitive but for licensing and insurance requirements. The fleet must be replaced and/or repaired frequently and depreciation should be utilized for reinvestment in new equipment. Depending on the size of the fleet and annual revenue growth, annual depreciation and interest expenses are on average stable from year-to-year. If investment in new equipment is delayed due to the company’s inability to service debt, maintenance costs can quickly skyrocket out of control which will further reduce the company’s ability to keep existing clients or gain new contracts. At that point, management will have their hands full trying to keep the company from going under.

Construction companies can be very profitable businesses, however those that struggle do so because they lack working capital. Like manufacturers, the working capital requirements of construction companies can be sizeable; these are financial demands EBITDA does not capture. General contractors in new building construction, especially residential builders, make few high-dollar capital expenditures; therefore, minimal depreciation expense is reported. However, general contractors typically purchase land, which takes time for approval to build and develop. In most cases, the purchase is heavily financed and interest associated with the development of land may be classified as a cost of goods sold (versus amortized as an expense). To look at a meaningful measure of a construction company’s interest coverage EBITDA should be adjusted for the amount of interest that is amortized through cost of goods sold. Nevertheless, based on the steep working capital requirements, assuming EBITDA is representative of the company’s cash flow position is erroneous.
2) EBITDA is not a standalone multiple of valuation analysis.

Market multiples are derived from transactions by dividing earnings or a particular financial metric, such as revenue, gross profit or other level of earnings by a business’ stock price or actual purchase price. Quite literally, almost anything can become a multiple derived from a purchase price. During the dot.com era when the market was booming with unprofitable start-up Internet companies, the acquisition of these companies was based, in part, on a multiple of sales or as a multiple of clicks or hits. Therefore, by default, a pricing multiple is created by backing the particular variable into the purchase price, as shown:

When buyers and sellers come together in a transaction, they typically don’t base the purchase price on an EBITDA multiple exclusively. The EBITDA multiple may actually be a by-product, for lack of a better term, of the deal price. Buyers and sellers examine the facts and circumstances surrounding the transaction, which may or may not include a discussion of EBITDA.

To illustrate the point that it is incorrect to use an EBITDA multiple as a standalone method for valuing a company, examine the following data of Company X, a privatelyheld company whose shareholders desire to sell the business.

Company X has three-year average revenue of $8.4 million, an average gross profit margin of $1.1 million and average adjusted EBITDA of $500,000. The company’s three-year adjusted net income is $220,000, or 2.6% of average revenue. Company X’s average adjusted net cash flow is $150,000, which is the amount the equity shareholders can remove from the business without disrupting operations (similar to dividends). Based on the Capitalized Economic Income Method utilizing Company X’s average adjusted net cash flow of $150,000, the fair market value of the business is $1.09 million, including $230,000 of non-operating assets.

The Capitalized Economic Income Method is an income approach method, which is the appropriate approach to value a business as a growing concern. Transactional data is utilized only as a sanity check in a market approach methodology to validate the findings of the income approach. Research of stock transactions indicates that privately-held companies within the same industry as Company X sold for 0.3x revenue, 1.0x gross profit, and 8.5x EBITDA. Calculating these multiples by the company’s three-year average revenue, gross profit margin and EBITDA, respectively, indicates a wide range of values:

* Market Value based on revenue = $2.52 million.
* Market Value based on gross profit = $1.1 million.
* Market Value based on EBITDA = $4.25 million.

Leaving aside the statistical factors a valuation analyst must consider when analyzing transactional data, such as the coefficient of variation and standard deviation, the large difference in values calculated by the multiples corroborates the two important inadequacies: EBITDA is not an accurate calculation of a company’s net cash flow, and a standalone application of EBITDA inflates a company’s price and perceived value. Based on Company X’s revenue size, its after-tax net income and net cash flow are very low. Company X is underperforming in comparison to the industry, and therefore, Company X has a market value that is in the lower range. Does this mean that a purchase price based on the EBITDA multiple would over value the company? The simple answer is "yes," however the right answer is "it depends." Because, remember: value is determined theoretically, whereas the actual purchase price of a business is typically driven by the desires and needs of the buyer and seller.

A business valuation conducted by an objective third-party provides the M&A advisor a "starting point" when contemplating a company’s asking price as it represents a hypothetical buyer, hypothetical seller scenario in an all cash, all stock purchase. The independent valuation also fends off creative accounting tactics that can distort a company’s value. During negotiations, an EBITDA multiple may be part of the discussion but it should not be the focus. Nevertheless, market multiples, such as EBITDA, are useless unless serving only as a "sanity check" to value derived from sound valuation methodology and thorough analysis.
In Conclusion:

Despite all its apparent shortcomings, the usage of EBITDA vacillates from analyzing desperate companies with bad credit to serving as a favorite tool of naïve investors, lenders and M&A participants. Whether determining a company’s available cash flow or purchase price, an appropriate measure of earnings must be employed—clearly, EBITDA is not an appropriate standalone measure of either. These days, knowledgeable professionals in the M&A and finance industries consider a standalone application of EBITDA as "earnings before bad stuff", "a lot of baloney", "a vague measurement", "one of the most flawed concepts to be adopted by the financial community", and "a joke".

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:15 am
Profile YIM WWW
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #4 Re: Name one company Brandon
MUSCLE13 wrote:
You go ahead and fight Wall Street Brandon. The question is not about what you or I prefer. Or what people say is right about it or not right about.

You don't seem to understand that you are going against every single media analyst report for the last quarter of a century.

Do I love EBITDA- No. Do you hate EBITDA - Again no.

Its how Wall Street treats media and you and your board are going to fight the Street and make it a personal preference for eps. Its really quite unbelievable.

Again I ask NAME ONE ELECTRONIC MEDIA COMPANY in the last quarter of a century that hasn't been valued on EBITDA by the Street. Name ONE!


Sirius Satellite Radio at over 9.00 per share with negative EBITDA.

XM Satellite Radio at over 40.00 per share with negative EBITDA

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:48 am
Profile YIM WWW
$atwaves $upporter
$atwaves $upporter

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 1:17 pm
Posts: 171
Post #5 Re: Name one company Brandon
For argument's sake, I have never heard Mel mention EBITDA. I have heard Mel and have read where Mel has stated FCF (free cash flow) on numerous cc's. If you don't believe me, go back and research. He has used fcf as his matrix for Sirius. That is what he is looking for. With fcf, ebitda will be a side note.


Brandon Matthews wrote:
MUSCLE13 wrote:
You go ahead and fight Wall Street Brandon. The question is not about what you or I prefer. Or what people say is right about it or not right about.

You don't seem to understand that you are going against every single media analyst report for the last quarter of a century.

Do I love EBITDA- No. Do you hate EBITDA - Again no.

Its how Wall Street treats media and you and your board are going to fight the Street and make it a personal preference for eps. Its really quite unbelievable.

Again I ask NAME ONE ELECTRONIC MEDIA COMPANY in the last quarter of a century that hasn't been valued on EBITDA by the Street. Name ONE!


Sirius Satellite Radio at over 9.00 per share with negative EBITDA.

XM Satellite Radio at over 40.00 per share with negative EBITDA


Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:53 am
Profile
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #6 Re: Name one company Brandon
MUSCLE13 wrote:
Again Free Cash Flow is Mel's favorite metric going back decades. It is not EBITDA. FCF is how you pay down debt, how you buy back stock, and how you make acquisitions. As mel has stated on countless interviews and earnings calls.

The Street uses EBITDA. The question about naming an electronic media company that is not valued on EBITDA has not been answered. NAME ONE!

Second your comments of Sirius valuation in the past at $9 and XM at $40. They had no EBITDA. Negative Nada. They were valued by tech analysts because they were nascent and media analysts do not cover speculative companies with no cash flow. They were valued on air much like the internet companies were.

Story is different now. This is a media company with significant cash flow.

Name One Guys![/b]


oh no.....you say all media companies....now you change to only media companies with ebitda...I'm calling bullshit....

Analysts did cover these companies....from merrill lynch, bank of america, goldman sachs....they all covered the stocks.....most had much higher projections and forecasts for xmsr....

Ironically, now that the combined company has positive ebitda, these same firms have all DROPPED coverage...

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:16 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Post #7 Re: Name one company Brandon
Brandon Matthews wrote:
MUSCLE13 wrote:
Again Free Cash Flow is Mel's favorite metric going back decades. It is not EBITDA. FCF is how you pay down debt, how you buy back stock, and how you make acquisitions. As mel has stated on countless interviews and earnings calls.

The Street uses EBITDA. The question about naming an electronic media company that is not valued on EBITDA has not been answered. NAME ONE!

Second your comments of Sirius valuation in the past at $9 and XM at $40. They had no EBITDA. Negative Nada. They were valued by tech analysts because they were nascent and media analysts do not cover speculative companies with no cash flow. They were valued on air much like the internet companies were.

Story is different now. This is a media company with significant cash flow.

Name One Guys![/b]


oh no.....you say all media companies....now you change to only media companies with ebitda...I'm calling bullshit....

Analysts did cover these companies....from merrill lynch, bank of america, goldman sachs....they all covered the stocks.....most had much higher projections and forecasts for xmsr....

Ironically, now that the combined company has positive ebitda, these same firms have all DROPPED coverage...


Yes, brandon isnt that interesting. EBITDA was a gift to make media companies look better than they are.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:20 pm
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #8 Re: Name one company Brandon
MUSCLE13 wrote:
You want to talk about the valuations in the past now for XM and Sirius. Did you see Jessica's reports? Did you see the other big media analysts reports that dropped coverage?

Was the valuation on eps Brandon? Or was it on discounted [b]cash flow or future EBITDA? You know exactly how they value.

Why do you guys get into fights. I never understand it. This isn't personal. Some guy is challenging my nickname now??? What is with you guys?

Its like 15 year olds go NANANANANA. You were on Wall Street Brandon. You know how media companies are valued. You know I am speaking honestly. But you get this personal stuff going and you lose it. Why?


I'm not losing it...this is all in fun to me...don't take it the wrong way...my point is what worked for 25 years no longer works....that has been my stance all along...

The above posts were meant to prove my point...the world has changed. EBITDA was the norm, but it widely criticized and no longer relied on as a good valuation method. Perhaps that is why the media sector has taken a beating. EBITDA is not a good valuation metric. Never was. It's smoke and mirrors and everyone knows it. Valuing something on ebitda is wrong in every way, shape and form. Worldcom proved that. Investor perception has changed to earnings and free cash flow....ebitda is a past fad. It's over now...

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:30 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Online
Satwaves Founder
Satwaves Founder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:41 am
Posts: 5171
Post #9 Re: Name one company Brandon
MUSCLE13 wrote:
MUSCLE13 wrote:
Gotta go to lunch. I see I have no chance of convincing anybody here about something that is so very well known on the Street it's common knowledge. Have fun insulting me dudes!

I will never insult you as I respect the argument...just a difference of opinion...


Brandon LOL I didn't write that last line! Did you edit my post? That is hilarious dude! LOL I love the line though!


yes...i have an edit button next to my quote button....oooops...

_________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:50 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Post #10 Re: Name one company Brandon
MUSCLE13 wrote:
MUSCLE13 wrote:
Gotta go to lunch. I see I have no chance of convincing anybody here about something that is so very well known on the Street it's common knowledge. Have fun insulting me dudes!

I will never insult you as I respect the argument...just a difference of opinion...


Brandon LOL I didn't write that last line! Did you edit my post? That is hilarious dude! LOL I love the line though!

AH, not true. You comments to ASM were insulting, and not presented in a way in which respect is gained. Respect is earned, its not given away. That being said, have a good lunch.


Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:24 pm
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ] 

Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ajax25, bdp., csl8, Google Adsense [Bot], Magnum15, manichouse, mikebz5, Mitchell, r007r007, ShadowSpy69, Sirius J and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  


SSL Certificate

newman_ad_banner